TOPIC: 125um microspheres and collogen

So would collogen swollow up a 125 micron bead the same as a 40um bead? i will be undergoing muscle augmentation, and just wondered what happens when bigger beads are involved, i know 45um beads are fine being covered by collogen but what about size ranging from 60um to 125um? i from what i here it is ok for deep intramuscular bioplasty for making muscles bigger i am body builder. i undertsand the danger of 30um or smaller and the migration thrue venules and such but would like somone to elaborate to me on the subject of larger diameter beads 45-80um and 106-125um, suspened in CMC gell for deep intramuscular injection. im aware the larger the bead the safer it is from migration

smartman they are taking down the thread so i ask you private message me with an email i can email you thru thank you.

4johnybravo wrote: were you at smartman?

Please keep in mind Smartman take's time out of his day to voluntarily offer his vast knowledge & insight into matters pertaining to PMMA (and other topics as well). He's not obliged to respond to a topic quickly, or to respond at all. Should he choose to respond, he will at his convenience.

Dr.Samy told me before that he sells Metacrill you can try to send him an e-mail and ask him about the cost (it could be cheaper), but I really advise you; you should find a doctor who is expert and well-trained in PMMA injection .


N.B. PMMA injection under untrained person can cause disaster (skin Necrosis or even pulmonary embolism --> death ; esp if a sharp needle is used)
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

buy from sammy passy in LARGE quantity not an option btw... just to say a second time. i need alllot of powder.... 1lb = 453grams,5lbs=2267,10lbs=4535 grams im not saying i need that much right away but i know in life i would never never need more than 10lbs,. maybe i need to ask how much 10lbs would cost... but right now i just wanna buy 50 grams at a really low price around 250-300$

i stop to think about the suspension agent, CMC, its troublesome. yet I've shot underground lab steroids sterilized in an oven. Ive come up with a secondary approach, Most of the testosterone i shoot into my quads is comprised of testosterone cypionate ester powder, USP pharmacy grade grape seed oil, and 0.9% benzyl alcohol to stop and bacteria. now I've been shooting this stuff for 10 yrs and never had a problem, instead of using CMC, why not just suspend the PMMA beads in the USP grapseed oil,add 0.9%benzyl alcohol to the mix, and walla, I'm injecting something that i know has worked for me for 10 yrs... it would cut the need for sterilizing CMC powder which would be 410$, and i would only be left with sterilizing the PMMA powder with E.O.

ARTEFILL uses bovine collogen
metacrill uses CMC,
i might use USP grapeseed oil with 0.9% benzyl alcohol.
thier are prolly 4 other suspention agents that could be used for PMMA. if not more. i think i need to think outside the box on suspention agents.

Hi 4johnybravo,

Sorry for the delay, today I have sent an e-mail to Prof. Lemperle and this is his reply :-


There are new PMMA - 40 micron beads produced in Germany but they will not be available on the market - except through my connections. I imagine the smallest quantity will be 1 kg clean PMMA for about $ 7500 ( = for 5000 x 1 ml syringes Artecoll, suspended in carboxymethyl-cellulose = $ 1.50 for 20 % PMMA per syringe !). The mixing is easy but must be under sterile conditions, of course - and it is advisable to add 0.3 % lidocaine to the cellulose. Best wishes,Gottfried - from Frankfurt (Symposium on "50 Years Plastic Surgery in Frankfurt") On Sunday, I fly from here to China.

According to Dr C, he used 30% PMMA on his arms and for his patient's muscles...He never mentioned to me if the size of the spheres were any larger than other concentrations that he uses for the penis...Not much help, but FYI...

4johnybravo, I am interested too to know more about this 4th generation of PMMA beads from Germany , he told me before, that he will make the best and the purest PMMA beads ever made (better than Artefill) and I am sure he will succeed.

I have asked him to send me an e-mail, when he gets the test results from Berlin, and I will inform you then.

I am sure with this future 4th generation purest PMMA beads (for Brazil), he will earn a lot of money.

Hi 4johnybravo,

Sorry for the delay, as far as I remember in regard of the conc. of Tween 80; it should be very low not more than e.g. 0.5% (and as far I remember in some other sites I read it was mentioned 0.1 mg). Be careful don't use a higher conc. if you are going to use it and Tween 80 if it is going to be used it has to be used with a precise concentration otherwise its side effects :-

Heart problems, tumor growth, headache + dizziness, infection, GIT problems, and even the possibility of infertility in female :-

www.livestrong.com/article/262369-polysorbate-80-side-effects/

suite101.com/article/polysorbate-80-causes-infertility-a60320

I will try to get you the exact concentration of Tween 80 if you want, but my advice to you is don't use it, because it could be very difficult to get the exact conc. at home.

IMO the most important is to get the 100% pure pmma beads more than the important of using the tween 80 and that was also the opinion of Lemperle too, I had exchanged few e-mails with Lemperle and he mentioned to me there will be in the near future the 4th generation of pmma from Germany and it wil be the purest pmma ever made (better than Artefill) " 1 gram= around 6-12 $ " , and this is a copy+paste of his e-mail to me:-

" By the way, if someone wants to inject PMMA microspheres into humans, he really should use the best and cleanest possible ones - better than in ArteFill : I developed these with a German company over the last year for Brazil - and am just waiting for the test results from Berlin. The kg will cost around $ 6000 , e.g. $ 12 per syringe..."

So E.O. is the way to go for PMMA, which Ive yet to research ethylene oxide and contact labs that use the gas but, they prolly charge more. I guess its not a good idea to oxidize the PMMA beads, but i need a turn key source for sterilizing my two materials, i was gonna premix cmc with PMMA in 10ml syringes and have them e-beamed, simple, but now if what your saying about chain linking in polyethylene,and how it may cause chain linking in PMMA as well, then I should reconsider e-beam, having to pay one company 410$ to sterilize one thing and another company to sterilize my PMMA in E.O. Any E.O. sterilizing labs you know of that are easy on the wallet? I almost do wanna just risk having my premixed syringes e-beam and risk it.. I know i just sounded stupid saying that, but nutek e-beams other peoples PMMA in syringes already and it just makes me wanna go that way but i wish i knew to what degree does irradiation Cross link in PMMA and to what degree it oxidizes the outer surface of the beads...

I guess if the 500grams of carboxymethylcellulose is in a gas permeable bag then E.O. would sterilize the powder I have.

Smartman, if you HAD to make your own PMMA injecatble filler, and already had 500grams of 38-45um PMMA beads, and had 500grams of Pharmacy USP grade high viscosity Carboxymethylcellulose powder, and had luer to luer transfer adapter and sterile water for injection, needing to mix them all together, would you premix syringes or have each powder sterilized first them mix and have sterilized? E.O. cannot penetrate a prefilled syringe correct? so itas contents must be out in the open on a tray right?

I never thought needing to mix PMMA,CMC,and sterile water into a syringe would be such a hassle but I'm GOING to stick with it till the end, eventually i get this down and have a turnkey process for myself.... if u would like to move this discussion to email This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. i got my paypal account up and running...$ two head are better than one.

i wonder, if put in order which would weigh more
1 cubic Inch of muscle,
1 cubic Inch of fat
1cubic Inch of cartilage
1cubic Inch of PMMA covered in collagen and fibrous tissue'

I wonder if PMMA with collagen and fibrous tissue weigh more than fat or muscle, just was wondering if i in total injected over the course of a year 1lb of PMMA, would the collagen plus PMMA and fibrous tissue weigh more than what fat more muscle does or less? would be awesome if its less, because i could put on size but lower weight you see.

next question
if you have a 1cc of 30% "metacrill" for example only 30% of that cc is PMMA, so to make things easier i will scale this question up to ten cc's so we have a 10 cc vial, of that 10 cc vial we have 3cc's that is actually plastic powder, now if you were to try and imagine that the 10 cc vial would magically encapsulate the 3cc's of PMMA micro spheres in the vial with collagen and fibrous tissue, how much would it all together be in the vial? 6cc's with the PMMA microspheres covered in fibrous tissue and collagen? i guess the questions is realistically how much does fibrous tissue and collagen account for? exactly double? a little more than double the PMMA powder or a little less than double?

I have talked to Dr. sammy passy on the phone and via e-mail for his prices and know the amount of PMMA i need is only affordable thru making it myslef, i have somone who will do the injections for me here in the USA, i just need the product, sammy passys prices are too high, far too high, and for whats in metacril i can make the amount i need at a fraction the cost that sammy would sell it to me for..

just a small update, last night I filled a one cc syringe with 30units of 40 micron beads, and 70 units of sterile oil with 0.9 percent benzyl alcohol in it to help bacteria if any should be their, injected into the inner side of my forearm back near my elbow area. I could see that when i added the oil to the powder in the syringe that that the two immediately became homogeneous with NO problem, my only concern is the small amount of benzyl alcohol may harm the beads, like melt or mi shape some of them, but this a small concentration of benzyle alcohol. I am trying at the moment to get ahold of a girl at this lab i know of who has an SEM microscope, i wanna double check the smoothness of the beads, i know the size of the beads is within 95% of 40um, and am told they are smooth, but i wanna see for myself, so I'm going to try and get this girl to let me mail her a small sample of beads to place in the SEM and take some pictures and e-mail me back the results so i can judge for myself if the surface is smooth enough or too rough.

I'm talking to another company right now who also sell these micro spheres and they say that the beads are treated to have smooth surface also so we will see.

one question thoe, is 1 100 micron bead is more than double the size of a 40um bead, and the 100um bead make 56% collogen, and the 40um bead makes 80%collogen, wouldnt the equation be

40um+80%=72um cuase 80% of 40 is 32.
100+56%= 156um total in width 56% of 100 is 156.
isnt the 100mcron bead still bigger? it seems kinda so,
I could see that the 80% collogen that the 40um bead produces would make a PMMA injected muscle more squishy and soft and not as rock hard were the filler was placed, but still overall the larger bead is still larger just with mor fibrous tissue growth around it than collogen?

So "smartman" i have another Q, what is the safest microbial limit not to be exceeded in a substance meant for bodily injection? i know of a lab that is gunna sterilize this powder ill be injecting, they are using e-beam which sosts 400$, and after they sterilize this powder, and have the lab analyse the powder to do a bioburden count, whats the microbial limit? i know USP <71> states that absoloutly zero, but thats if its an FDA product, but medically speaking you can get away with some microbe and bacteria in a very small number per gram of material, is it somthing like 4 or 5 per gram of powder?