TOPIC: Latest pathology shows 80-90% PMMA in my tissue vs. a normal pattern with Metacrill

Was it Dr. C that did this? Then why is he so highly recommended?

This is exactly what I'm hoping doesn't happen with my recent silicone injections.

When I had Mrs. Bum Bum's lawyer, they said this to me. I hired them in Brazil to sue Lebon for the defective PMMA, not Avanti - as I still do not believe Avanti is at fault when I look at the slides. I remain convinced the product had a problem, particularly since I reacted so strangely in weeks 1-2 vs. metacrill. It was an expert witness statement in Mrs. Bum Bum's case (about the saline or CMC) - but it was in context of a larger deposition he gave (not in English, but I had a few people read it and translate it clearly to English, aside from google translate).

In the first 2 weeks, the PMMA wasn't surrounded by much collagen yet - just early inflammatory cells. It was still immature and could have been "washed out" per this one doctor / witness. That's only 1 doctor's opinion, and he could have been wrong - but if the 6 entry points were opened again and filled with 30-50 cc saline or CMC and then allowed to drain out for many days, it seems logical that it would've diluted down the Linnea Safe...at least, logical to me. Working with this firm was not easy as I do not speak Portuguese and they were very expensive. So, I just got bits and pieces of info (some I cannot share unfortunately - but it's not that interesting anyway) and then I felt like it was enough. An actual lawsuit against Lebon would cost 10k (minimum) in fees, court costs and travel expenses and I wouldn't win for a variety of reasons (cosmetic procedures are seen as "you did it to yourself" in a judge / jury's mind, proving I had a "bad batch" is very difficult from pathology alone, the Ryan Lochte thing happened and I don't think Americans are viewed well there, and I would've had to have Dr. C fly to Rio to testify - at my own expense and then I'd have to pay thousands for his testimony if he even agreed to do it which is asking a LOT - most doctors won't even testify in cases down the street.) So, I dropped it, but I got some info in the process, like that statement... and I spent some money that didn't really go anywhere, but it was an avenue I wanted to explore at the time.

Restoration,

I feel so bad for you.

So it was just a bad batch? I'm considering Dr. C to fix any irregularities with my Dr. Loria procedure if he will work with me.

I don't want that to happen to me.

I had 3 different appt's with Dr C. After seeing and reading of the real issues with PMMA the Dr C injects, plus reading about after many patients after spending the money and had issues were professionally addressed. No emails, phone calls returned etc. My main worry if issues like Restoration had plus many other I had to give up my deposit. The risks out number the possible issues.

Awesome input to the forum.

Am I mistaken or is it the Linneasafe in top photo where the beads all look perfectly sized? And is it the metacrill in the predominant part of the lower photo, where the beads are random sizes and poorly spaced.

Assuming that is the case, I thought the Linneasafe looked better in the photos, based on particle size consistency and placement.

Smalljay, I didn't change anything in this session from the first 2 rounds of metacrill. I went back the next 2-3 days to get additional massing. We could already feel a lump hardening on top and they told me to keep massaging it. That particular one turned hard extremely fast...and was not possible to massage out at all (it's still hard to this day 1.5 years later). Also, all the product that went under my shaft (that later got cut out surgically) was not going anywhere, even though I constructed a whole device with a stretcher and rubber bands and gauze pads to try to "push" that material out from under my shaft. This is when I saw the log by jonthomas who also had a bunch of PMMA right under his shaft in the same area. It never moved after the procedure was done. Once it was there, it was there. I would say this round was less amenable to massage than 1 and 2, where usually lumps could be massaged out.

Richard, everyone is different but IMO if you are over 5.0" in Girth, it is a bad idea. Their own publication says that 52% of patients have lumps. PMMA causes lumps in the lips in 7% of patients and was completely abandoned for use in the lips...at a 7% complication rate.

@restoration

Incidentally I just had microdrops 2 weeks ago and they have turned out good. I really think this might be solve a lot of your issues. I'll update my thread with more detail but in a nutshell, this treatment really seems to address lumps and bumps effectively.

To be honest I don't see any difference between "wannagetbig" result and everyone else who got what we used to call the "ring". We had loads of members who have had the exact problem. In fact GSX, the first member to go to TJ, had it.

Did you gain any size in areas that didn't turn into the hard lumps? Is it possible that some internal scarrring compressed all the product into small pockets? One thing I noted, but never mentioned before, was that your lumps seemed to appear where you already had slight contour irrregularities.

Letsgiveitago wrote: @restoration Incidentally I just had microdrops 2 weeks ago and they have turned out good. I really think this might be solve a lot of your issues. I'll update my thread with more detail but in a nutshell, this treatment really seems to address lumps and bumps effectively.

Did you gain any size from the micro droplets?

Thanks JD. It's ironic that me, having a ridiculous amount of info, would have this happen...not to mention I had a penile disorder that I had surgically fixed & was single. But, a married person with an existing big Dick will do just fine! It's very bizarre. BUT - It made me feel a million times better after I had Peyronie's for so long that I can still cautiously recommend 10% to people despite what I have been through because I knew what that change was like in my life (and what the opposite is). I don't think I've ever dissuaded anyone on here under 5" Girth. Over that size, I don't usually comment.

Hoddle, my entry points were generally where I had the biggest nodules. I always had a low spot on the left that couldn't ever fill in (some scar tissue was in there - but in R1 with 10% metacrill they added some after day 1 and made it smooth). If you go into my log (I know my posts from that era were a little scattered - not all in the same thread) try to find the pics where I drew neon green dots and lines where the nodules early on. That was happening basically in real time in March/April of 2015. I also drew neon green "trails" where I was feeling the hardening cord-like things in the early days (some of those hardened and some turned into lumps...hard to remember all of it over time...mostly all of it is out on the sides though there's some on top still).

Is it possible that some internal scarrring compressed all the product into small pockets?

Yes, one Dermatologist I saw who works a lot with artefill said that women who keep going back too much will end up like my penis ended up. The face can only take so much until nodules start to form. It's possible that too much was put in for my anatomy - though nobody else seems to have a limit, right? Guys are going over 7" Girth and I was only ~5.25" Girth at r3. Peyronie's scarring is much deeper below where PMMA goes. Maybe the metacrill envelope of fibrosis was too tight and mature, so therefore adding fresh linnea safe to that caused it to all get pushed out and squished into the lower areas, but it honestly was not that irregular going to that round. (I've thought this theory too - including that the metacrill had a mature biofilm and linnea safe did not) Anyway, the question is still, why push out all the carrier and not the beads? My penis wasn't perfectly even (and that's why I wanted to go to r3 also), but many guys had irregularities that were similar in a round 2 or 3. Dr. C has done so many patients with so many rounds that I think he'd see the warning signs and red flags during the procedure, with regard to not injecting the wrong side or depth or creating a Nodule or whatever.

Every surgery I had was roughly at an entry point Nodule (starting with the top left over a year ago, then the top right on the same day - which opened and was my first open wound). That was repaired and the same doc did the lower right one later. Finally they did the middle left and lower left through the scrotal incision 7 weeks ago, which were always hard lumps, but they actually blended in until that big lower right surgery I had which pulled the skin up and unusually tight. So, then those lumps were sticking out and I was able to put Radiesse below it (in november or something? I took pics of it here and it looked really good). The problem was that it was SO short lived (maybe 4-6 mos) in the volume I used, and it's very expensive. I felt that it made more sense to do the scrotalplasty to have normal skin movement again & then just remove the lumps rather than spend 2k on Radiesse every year.

The reason I had the last open wound and the weird "bite-like" scar was that the upper left Removal scar was so ugly after a year (done by that original Dermatologist, not the uro specialist), I thought my surgeon could revise it and make it look more like a line, like the others he did (rather than looking like a spider). He did it well, but then it opened. So, that was re-closed a month ago with that weird bite-like incision where he had to dig out the PMMA to close the wound, leaving that big dent on the left. (He's a bit aggressive... which has its pluses and minuses.)

Anyway, long story short, that's basically how I know they're all near entry points, though the entry points might have been in low areas, I am not sure.

Yes, this filler was injected at Avanti. It's all in my old logs.

The PMMA Nodule removals were done by American doctors.

Do you have access to the logs? In my signature, you should see the old posts about all of it.

We do know that other guy ("wannagetbig") who posted here at the same time here (he was in the waiting room in 3/2015 when I was there - i just didn't realize it was him in person, though we both heard the same noise in our rooms) was injected during that week & had an issue with a ring around his circ area that hardened (even though he got less PMMA than i did). He was also allowed to return for a Kenalog shot (but when I got a Kenalog shot a the same time in my hometown - because I don't live so close to TJ, this apparently upset Dr. C to the point where the wouldn't let me return...I was trying to prevent lumps in my Dick, sorry.)

Also, they were just phasing linnea safe back in at the time and most were still getting metacrill due to the price increase for linnea safe. His corrective round was mostly 10% and it was 2 months later.

As far as production and distribution goes, it's hard to know and I've wondered the same thing. There are many American manufacturers who will send medical products out with sequential serial numbers in packs to distributors (so each vial would have its own number, and the pack would have a number - and so 1 "bad batch" would go to a lot of places depending on minimum order counts and distributors). Who knows how large of a batch Lebon makes things? They definitely don't sell direct, though. They sell through distributors.

Judging by their size (i posted their manufacturing facility before), it can't be much. Avanti ordered Linnea safe in boxes of 3 mL syringes that contain 10 per box (or 20? I forgot). Did they have 60 mL on hand? 120? Did they throw it out and call Lebon after my issue? Did Lebon call them with a quiet notice that they should not inject lots # 150 - 165 and they realized they gave it to me by accident (which is why they wouldn't let me back in the office)? Who knows. They will be pissed I just typed that, but unfortunately, it's impossible to answer your question unless I put out every option. For a while, I was so desperate for a solution, I even hired Mrs. Bum Bum's lawyer to get to the bottom of it - interesting law firm, but just way too expensive for a case I will clearly never win as an American seeking cosmetic surgery in TJ so I am not filing against Lebon...but I thought I'd get info in discovery (same reason Melissa Rivers sued for Joan Rivers' death). The weren't that helpful, though. I did find out that injecting saline or CMC would have gotten the PMMA out of there and saved me the last 1.5 years of hell though (when my appointment was cancelled for no reason).

At the end of the day, all I know is the truth will never ever be known because they've made no attempt to get to the bottom of it or it will remain covered up. All I can have access to is the actual tissue inside my own body which is clearly different and not reacting normally compared to the tissue from Metacrill or any foreign body. Nothing changed with me health-wise in that time. I've even recently had full labs, EKG, Chest x-ray and remain in good health. My medication never changed between my Linnea safe and Metacrill round except I went back on pentoxifylline (for better lower body blood flow, it's main use, and it gives you better boners) which I told Dr. C. He confirmed this was fine via discussion with Dr Lemperle, as I was concerned about it for a few reasons: It changes platelet behavior slightly by making the platelets more deformable (nothing like aspirin or inhibitory for clotting). It somewhat inhibits TGFb-1, which was my main concern, but the immunologic cascade that is responsible for building the foreign body reaction is much bigger than just TGBb-1. If you inhibited all your TGFb-1 you'd die, so it would just be a minor change and Lemperle and Casavantes both agreed that drug had no effect on a PMMA injection and they are the experts...though perhaps this wasn't correct - I don't know. I wasn't even on the normal full stable dose (600) because it made me too jittery. I was on 200-400. Also, other patients have been on it who received PMMA.

Honestly, aside from a product defect, I cannot explain these slides. Nobody I know can explain those slides, and they've traveled all over the world (more pics than here). It has been an 18 month mystery that I have asked some of the smartest people I know to help solve.

As a biomed researcher in immunology, I work with pathology all the time. I was actually going to make a comment about the tissue section only representing a single "picture" and not being able to tell the size of the particle from this.
A few things that stand out to me or my random thoughts here:- Much less immune cells (macrophages) than I would have expected. -The clustering of the beads, and relative similarity in size of beads, in relation to the old PMMA, really shows how much product you had in such a small area. Even with the limitation of only being able to see a 2d/flat image, and not 3d, you can still see a consistency with product quality. - If there is a consistency in product size, I would think over concentration of product would not be likely. I have always thought that most nodules are due to the limited ability to evenly distribute product via syringe. The "extra push" eh? -TGFB-1 is a complex molecule immunologically, but highly doubtful macrophage function would be compromised to the point it would cause any noticeable effect, particularly as you had no signs of enhanced susceptibility to infection.

What I don't understand is, if this was due to defect product, given how these things are produced, shouldn't there have been a spate of these incidents? Surely it's near impossible for one vial to be carrying 90% PMMA. Surely an entire batch has to be bunk. And if that was the case why aren't we hearing about other people with the same issue who has this done at a similar time. We've seen plenty of lumps and nodules, but Restorations experience seems to be unique.

Maybe how I'm imagining the manufacturing process is all wrong, but i assume a big flask of product is made and then put in to hundreds of individual vials. Surely it's near impossible for only on vial to be bad, the entire batch has to be doesn't it? Shouldn't we therefore have at least a few guys who also had the same reaction as Restoration did from that time period?

Am I mistaken or is it the Linneasafe in top photo where the beads all look perfectly sized? And is it the metacrill in the predominant part of the lower photo, where the beads are random sizes and poorly spaced.

Assuming that is the case, I thought the Linneasafe looked better in the photos, based on particle size consistency and placement.

You're only looking at 2 slides of 3 mm of tissue, and these are slices through 3D spheres - so you don't really know how wide each one is in every slice. You could be seeing the top or middle of the sphere.

So, generally speaking, you can't draw too many conclusions about particle size and consistency without having the products analyzed by a physical chemist. This is just pathology. The point is that you can see that there are no immune cells and no fibrosis - and it basically formed little vacuoles that clustered together to form the hard plastic lumps. It's too much PMMA and not enough human tissue which is why it never felt normal or healed normally either.