--- title: "General Phalloplasty Discussion (2.0 Archive) - Page 28 - PhalloBoards - Phalloboards" description: "A copy of PhalloBoards 2.0 written content.... - Page 28" url: "https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive.html?start=810" date: "2026-08-08T09:44:13+00:00" language: "en-GB" --- # PhalloBoards - An Online Community to Discuss Penile Girth Enhancement General Forum Doctors Forum Username Password Remember me - [ Forgot your password? ](https://j4.phalloboards.info/component/users/reset.html?Itemid=101) - [ Forgot your username? ](https://j4.phalloboards.info/component/users/remind.html?Itemid=101) - [ Create an account ](https://j4.phalloboards.info/register.html) - General Phalloplasty Discussion (2.0 Archive) ## [General Phalloplasty Discussion (2.0 Archive)](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive.html "View Category 'General Phalloplasty Discussion (2.0 Archive)'") A copy of PhalloBoards 2.0 written content. ### [Patient Support Group & Progress Reports](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/patient-support-group-progress-reports.html "View Category 'Patient Support Group & Progress Reports'") Chronicle your journey and/or submit patient-specific questions here. Before & After Photos. Moderators: [moderatoruser](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/6780242-moderatoruser.html "View moderatoruser's Profile") 749 Topics 28.3k Replies [Re: Miracle8x7's PMMA Progress Rep ...](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/patient-support-group-progress-reports/5391236-miracle8x7s-pmma-progress-report.html?start=1245#1308724176 "Hey uptownblk, another blast from the past! Since you're a veteran member, I won't give you a hard time for it, but for Miracle's sake, I strongly recommend posting on the or contacting Avanti...") by [Skeptical\_One](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1704847-skeptical-one.html "View Skeptical_One's Profile") 6 months 6 days ago ### [Love, Lust, & Vanity](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/love-lust-vanity.html "View Category 'Love, Lust, & Vanity'") Discuss why We Seek Penis Enlargement. Topics also include Sex Life, Sexual Health, Erection Quality & Libido, Understanding Female Anatomy, Dissecting Size Insecurities, etc. Moderators: [moderatoruser](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/6780242-moderatoruser.html "View moderatoruser's Profile") 294 Topics 4481 Replies [Re: Just for testing](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/love-lust-vanity/10152843-just-for-testing.html#1308723203 "test") by [Eric](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/458-eric.html "View Eric's Profile") 10 months 2 weeks ago ### [Penis Enlargement Exercises, Equipment, Supplements, & All Other Non-Surgical Methods](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/penis-enlargement-exercises-equipment-supplements-all-other-non-surgical-methods.html "View Category 'Penis Enlargement Exercises, Equipment, Supplements, & All Other Non-Surgical Methods'") Discuss the Effectiveness PE Exercises, Pills & Supplements, and All Other Alternative Means to Gaining Size. Moderators: [moderatoruser](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/6780242-moderatoruser.html "View moderatoruser's Profile") 0 Topics 12 Replies [Re: The Penis-Hanger](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/penis-enlargement-exercises-equipment-supplements-all-other-non-surgical-methods/10060341-the-penis-hanger.html#1308684456 "@Hunkydory01 Hey, Hunky You don't believe to used car salesman right? Here is the similar case. First of all, claim of erect length gain of 2 inches+ is simply ridiciolus from medical aspect as...") by [Herbert\_West](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4212657-herbert-west.html "View Herbert_West's Profile") 7 years 2 months ago ### [Polls-Only](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/polls-only.html "View Category 'Polls-Only'") Polls Tend to get Lost Quickly in Bigger Forums, so a Poll-Specific Board is the Solution! Moderators: [moderatoruser](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/6780242-moderatoruser.html "View moderatoruser's Profile") 40 Topics 571 Replies No topics ### [Man Cave](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/man-cave.html "View Category 'Man Cave'") Non-PE Related Discussions, including Sports, Celebrities/Models, Cars, Music, Video Games, Hobbies, and Humor. Moderators: [moderatoruser](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/6780242-moderatoruser.html "View moderatoruser's Profile") 36 Topics 404 Replies [Re: Bizzare World Records](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/man-cave/7135642-bizzare-world-records.html#1308372641 "Number 30 has been scientifically disproven in my sexual lab. As my wife was orgasming I started bleeting like a doe in heat, stopped her orgasm dead in its tracks. Her after she stopped laughing, '...") by [Bonsi](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/5964089-bonsi.html "View Bonsi's Profile") 7 years 3 months ago ### [Archive](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/archive.html "View Category 'Archive'") Moderators: [moderatoruser](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/6780242-moderatoruser.html "View moderatoruser's Profile") 18 Topics 150 Replies [Re: Has anyone tried Stretcher all ...](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/archive/10124237-has-anyone-tried-stretcher-all-day-system.html#1308461979 "Tbone hit the nail right on. ALI is great. some shit is , cheap shit. some stuff actually works well. Ive purchased tons of shit from there for all the different R&D ive done. But with...") by [Texas](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/6380043-texas.html "View Texas's Profile") 7 years 3 months ago [ ](#forumbottom) ## General Phalloplasty Discussion (2.0 Archive) 0 Replies ### [none](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8169693-none.html "Deleted") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [cav8000](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4578199-cav8000.html "View cav8000's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8169693-none.html#1292771554 "Deleted") 10 years 1 month ago by [cav8000](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4578199-cav8000.html "View cav8000's Profile") 1991 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8169693-none.html#1292771554 "Deleted") by [cav8000](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4578199-cav8000.html "View cav8000's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 11 Replies ### [looking for the most reputable HA doc in the Socal area...](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8164410-looking-for-the-most-reputable-ha-doc-in-the-socal-area.html "i think i am going to give it a try, who is da best in the Socal area, i can supply my own HA so cost does not matter....") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [sexy\_beast](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4496448-sexy-beast.html "View sexy_beast's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8164410-looking-for-the-most-reputable-ha-doc-in-the-socal-area.html#1292763146 "not afraid, just wanted to try HA first. if i'm going to TJ i would do the PMMA. it's all about the look, feel, aesthetics. i'm sure DR. C is awesome and would definitely go to him but was hoping to...") 10 years 1 month ago by [sexy\_beast](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4496448-sexy-beast.html "View sexy_beast's Profile") 2059 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8164410-looking-for-the-most-reputable-ha-doc-in-the-socal-area.html#1292763146 "not afraid, just wanted to try HA first. if i'm going to TJ i would do the PMMA. it's all about the look, feel, aesthetics. i'm sure DR. C is awesome and would definitely go to him but was hoping to...") by [sexy\_beast](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4496448-sexy-beast.html "View sexy_beast's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 3 Replies ### [Pmma with mods](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8082678-pmma-with-mods.html "Can u still get pmma if u have mods, say like pearls or beads underneath your skin??") Topic started 10 years 3 months ago, by [girthobsessed](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4296739-girthobsessed.html "View girthobsessed's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8082678-pmma-with-mods.html#1292757119 "I too would like to know. I emailed Dr C. And still have not recieved a phone call or email in response.") 10 years 1 month ago by [Aimicone](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4285298-aimicone.html "View Aimicone's Profile") 2340 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8082678-pmma-with-mods.html#1292757119 "I too would like to know. I emailed Dr C. And still have not recieved a phone call or email in response.") by [Aimicone](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4285298-aimicone.html "View Aimicone's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 6 Replies ### [PMMA 40micron](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8167138-pmma-40micron.html "Lots of threads about PMMA so I made this its the first of this size Dr.Jane at jenesislipoplasty is offering bellafill along with HA Ive read and researched PMMA for years for this but never seen...") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [aftershock](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4473184-aftershock.html "View aftershock's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8167138-pmma-40micron.html#1292753862 "Its on the website") 10 years 1 month ago by [aftershock](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4473184-aftershock.html "View aftershock's Profile") 2002 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8167138-pmma-40micron.html#1292753862 "Its on the website") by [aftershock](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4473184-aftershock.html "View aftershock's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 5 Replies ### [Trimix](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8159181-trimix.html "Has anyone have used trimix and had an enlargement") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [Qtip](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2001505-qtip.html "View Qtip's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8159181-trimix.html#1292749773 "I used the shots. Got it from some peptide supplier while back and did hanging. Nothing") 10 years 1 month ago by [Qtip](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2001505-qtip.html "View Qtip's Profile") 2269 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8159181-trimix.html#1292749773 "I used the shots. Got it from some peptide supplier while back and did hanging. Nothing") by [Qtip](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2001505-qtip.html "View Qtip's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 54 Replies ### [No Metacrill At Avanti Derma - Linnea Safe ONLY!!](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8165998-no-metacrill-at-avanti-derma-linnea-safe-only.html "Yeah I just got an email from Wade saying the same thing. I didn\'t ask, I just assumed they stopped offering metacrill for a long time now since the last time I emailed Wade about the procedure and price was around 2015.") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [indiano123](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4089166-indiano123.html "View indiano123's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8165998-no-metacrill-at-avanti-derma-linnea-safe-only.html?start=45#1293247931 "They cut an inch of skin out in the erect state (over two procedures). That\'s how I lost length. The scar is the size of a hair.") 10 years 1 month ago by [Restoration](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2984876-restoration.html "View Restoration's Profile") - [1](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8165998-no-metacrill-at-avanti-derma-linnea-safe-only.html?start=0 "Page:1") - [2](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8165998-no-metacrill-at-avanti-derma-linnea-safe-only.html?start=15 "Page:2") - [3](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8165998-no-metacrill-at-avanti-derma-linnea-safe-only.html?start=30 "Page:3") - [4](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8165998-no-metacrill-at-avanti-derma-linnea-safe-only.html?start=45 "Page:4") 6024 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8165998-no-metacrill-at-avanti-derma-linnea-safe-only.html?start=45#1293247931 "They cut an inch of skin out in the erect state (over two procedures). That\'s how I lost length. The scar is the size of a hair.") by [Restoration](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2984876-restoration.html "View Restoration's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 0 Replies ### [DMSO + Topical Antibiotic/ Crushed Oral: Treat Biofilm?](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8164291-dmso-topical-antibiotic-crushed-oral-treat-biofilm.html "-") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [jamesjarmish](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3338909-jamesjarmish.html "View jamesjarmish's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8164291-dmso-topical-antibiotic-crushed-oral-treat-biofilm.html#1292728218 "-") 10 years 1 month ago by [jamesjarmish](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3338909-jamesjarmish.html "View jamesjarmish's Profile") 2039 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8164291-dmso-topical-antibiotic-crushed-oral-treat-biofilm.html#1292728218 "-") by [jamesjarmish](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3338909-jamesjarmish.html "View jamesjarmish's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 24 Replies ### [Dermal Fillers](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8145855-dermal-fillers.html "Hello, I'm thinking of going the dermal filler route. There has been a lot of good info on these boards but I can't seem to find a lot of picture etc. I thinking of using Greenwald in Tampa, Heller in...") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [jackets5](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4540816-jackets5.html "View jackets5's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8145855-dermal-fillers.html?start=15#1292721488 "Be careful with Radiesse guys. If your body accepts it fine, but if not it can be pushed to the surface and form hardened white calcium-like platelets that look like herpes and take upwards of five...") 10 years 1 month ago by [HunkChunk](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1715839-hunkchunk.html "View HunkChunk's Profile") - [1](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8145855-dermal-fillers.html?start=0 "Page:1") - [2](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8145855-dermal-fillers.html?start=15 "Page:2") 4170 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8145855-dermal-fillers.html?start=15#1292721488 "Be careful with Radiesse guys. If your body accepts it fine, but if not it can be pushed to the surface and form hardened white calcium-like platelets that look like herpes and take upwards of five...") by [HunkChunk](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1715839-hunkchunk.html "View HunkChunk's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 2 Replies ### [How many days should I take off work? PMMA](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8146381-how-many-days-should-i-take-off-work-pmma.html "As the title states, I've been a lurker and have been reading a ton. For all you guys who's gone through this, what is the recommended amount of time I should take off work? 1 week? 2 weeks? 3? My job...") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [ultra](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1777821-ultra.html "View ultra's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8146381-how-many-days-should-i-take-off-work-pmma.html#1292712002 "Thanks guys. Completely forgot about this.") 10 years 1 month ago by [ultra](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1777821-ultra.html "View ultra's Profile") 1993 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8146381-how-many-days-should-i-take-off-work-pmma.html#1292712002 "Thanks guys. Completely forgot about this.") by [ultra](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1777821-ultra.html "View ultra's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 11 Replies ### [Anyone get PMMA muscle injections?](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/7914404-anyone-get-pmma-muscle-injections.html "Relevant links: phalloboards.websitetoolbox.com/post/rou...ight=muscle&trail=15 ...") Topic started 10 years 6 months ago, by [Skeptical\_One](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1704847-skeptical-one.html "View Skeptical_One's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/7914404-anyone-get-pmma-muscle-injections.html#1292711038 "I had 200cc's of PMMA distributed between biceps and delts about 6 weeks ago. I was told that the least amount of time to space sessions was 7 weeks, and will be following up for R2 to hit those areas...") 10 years 1 month ago by [zayne](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1843574-zayne.html "View zayne's Profile") 1948 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/7914404-anyone-get-pmma-muscle-injections.html#1292711038 "I had 200cc's of PMMA distributed between biceps and delts about 6 weeks ago. I was told that the least amount of time to space sessions was 7 weeks, and will be following up for R2 to hit those areas...") by [zayne](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1843574-zayne.html "View zayne's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 27 Replies ### [Muhammed Mirza VS Elliot Heller](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8146545-muhammed-mirza-vs-elliot-heller.html "Hey All, Am finally trying to get some work done on the member. I am now physically located in NYC. Considering going to either Dr Mirza or Dr Heller. I have a consultation with Dr Heller on Friday,...") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [OmeGa\_5\_705](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2041079-omega-5-705.html "View OmeGa_5_705's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8146545-muhammed-mirza-vs-elliot-heller.html?start=15#1292709500 "I didn't ask him about glans procedure so I don't know. He was not willing to quantify specific gains with the procedure. I gotta say the thought of getting a granuloma a year down the line freaks me...") 10 years 1 month ago by [OmeGa\_5\_705](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2041079-omega-5-705.html "View OmeGa_5_705's Profile") - [1](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8146545-muhammed-mirza-vs-elliot-heller.html?start=0 "Page:1") - [2](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8146545-muhammed-mirza-vs-elliot-heller.html?start=15 "Page:2") 4342 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8146545-muhammed-mirza-vs-elliot-heller.html?start=15#1292709500 "I didn't ask him about glans procedure so I don't know. He was not willing to quantify specific gains with the procedure. I gotta say the thought of getting a granuloma a year down the line freaks me...") by [OmeGa\_5\_705](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2041079-omega-5-705.html "View OmeGa_5_705's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 6 Replies ### [Dr. Greenwald, Tampa](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8147906-dr-greenwald-tampa.html "Been speaking with Dr. Greenwald and he is very responsive. I know he uses Radiesse for his dermal filler for the penis. Although he says there is virtually no risk with the Radiesse and he has never...") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [jackets5](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4540816-jackets5.html "View jackets5's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8147906-dr-greenwald-tampa.html#1292702961 "How much was retained? In between 4.75 and 5" I would presume? He appears to be the safest approach to girth enhancement but I was really seeking permanent results (and you did say that at least some...") 10 years 1 month ago by [anonymous186](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3945818-anonymous186.html "View anonymous186's Profile") 2002 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8147906-dr-greenwald-tampa.html#1292702961 "How much was retained? In between 4.75 and 5" I would presume? He appears to be the safest approach to girth enhancement but I was really seeking permanent results (and you did say that at least some...") by [anonymous186](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3945818-anonymous186.html "View anonymous186's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 1 Replies ### [Depression on lower abdomen after implant removal](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8160037-depression-on-lower-abdomen-after-implant-removal.html "Hello all, I need some help. I had the implant removed a year and half ago. Dr. Elist injected kenalog injection in the area to breakup the scar tissue. The kenalog somewhat worked but it has left...") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [kyross](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3320392-kyross.html "View kyross's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8160037-depression-on-lower-abdomen-after-implant-removal.html#1292700271 "After the removal, scar tissue was present. The kenalog did help but is eroded the healthy tissue around it. I was also taking serracor nk. There is a scar tissue still present that runs along from...") 10 years 1 month ago by [kyross](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3320392-kyross.html "View kyross's Profile") 2062 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8160037-depression-on-lower-abdomen-after-implant-removal.html#1292700271 "After the removal, scar tissue was present. The kenalog did help but is eroded the healthy tissue around it. I was also taking serracor nk. There is a scar tissue still present that runs along from...") by [kyross](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3320392-kyross.html "View kyross's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 0 Replies ### [Silikon 1000?](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8161063-silikon-1000.html ".") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [jamesjarmish](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3338909-jamesjarmish.html "View jamesjarmish's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8161063-silikon-1000.html#1292700260 ".") 10 years 1 month ago by [jamesjarmish](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3338909-jamesjarmish.html "View jamesjarmish's Profile") 1747 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8161063-silikon-1000.html#1292700260 ".") by [jamesjarmish](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/3338909-jamesjarmish.html "View jamesjarmish's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 4 Replies ### [Email from Wade; latest prices from Dr. Casavantes re: PMMA, other info](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8127703-email-from-wade-latest-prices-from-dr-casavantes-re-pmma-other-info.html "Just got this email response from Wade, thought it might interest some of the newbies (such as myself): - A .5 to .75 erect circumference gain is the approximated gain from each procedure. Specific...") Topic started 10 years 2 months ago, by [Smokdu123](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4375207-smokdu123.html "View Smokdu123's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8127703-email-from-wade-latest-prices-from-dr-casavantes-re-pmma-other-info.html#1292685179 "Quote:I think his email is pretty accurate - I kinda wish I had gone with 20% in round 1 rather than 30%. Why are you regretting your 30% decision? I assume 30% would give you more girth, than 20%, no?") 10 years 1 month ago by [quart13579](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1762052-quart13579.html "View quart13579's Profile") 2415 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8127703-email-from-wade-latest-prices-from-dr-casavantes-re-pmma-other-info.html#1292685179 "Quote:I think his email is pretty accurate - I kinda wish I had gone with 20% in round 1 rather than 30%. Why are you regretting your 30% decision? I assume 30% would give you more girth, than 20%, no?") by [quart13579](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1762052-quart13579.html "View quart13579's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 7 Replies ### [Will Dr C take a cc payment? ](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8145208-will-dr-c-take-a-cc-payment.html "Just a question...I'm planning on saving $3k for my first PMAA, but I'm getting kinda desperate after reading several successful posts. But does anybody know if you can pay your PMAA procedure with DR C with a credit card?") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [Elvergon](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4479944-elvergon.html "View Elvergon's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8145208-will-dr-c-take-a-cc-payment.html#1292680929 "Quote:I wouldn't even get it done. It's false expectations and it could make your penis unrealistic looking and rigid. lets say it does look unrealistic and for some reason u dont follow the aftercare...") 10 years 1 month ago by [kreungdd](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4217712-kreungdd.html "View kreungdd's Profile") 1733 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8145208-will-dr-c-take-a-cc-payment.html#1292680929 "Quote:I wouldn't even get it done. It's false expectations and it could make your penis unrealistic looking and rigid. lets say it does look unrealistic and for some reason u dont follow the aftercare...") by [kreungdd](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4217712-kreungdd.html "View kreungdd's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 0 Replies ### [Dr. Elist, the butcher, let's get his practice shut down.](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8152545-dr-elist-the-butcher-lets-get-his-practice-shut-down.html "Moderator Edit: This post serves no purpose and walks a thin line between criticism and defamation. For this purpose, the content of this entire post has been deleted. @Dr_Elist_Is_Butcher It...") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [Dr\_Elist\_Is\_Butcher](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4555467-dr-elist-is-butcher.html "View Dr_Elist_Is_Butcher's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8152545-dr-elist-the-butcher-lets-get-his-practice-shut-down.html#1292669336 "Actually, this is a fairly clever idea on your part. Congrats on letting the air out of the tires rather than lifting up the bridge.") 10 years 1 month ago by [Blitzburgh](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1841241-blitzburgh.html "View Blitzburgh's Profile") 2190 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8152545-dr-elist-the-butcher-lets-get-his-practice-shut-down.html#1292669336 "Actually, this is a fairly clever idea on your part. Congrats on letting the air out of the tires rather than lifting up the bridge.") by [Blitzburgh](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1841241-blitzburgh.html "View Blitzburgh's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 17 Replies ### [Girth help NYC Area](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8150757-girth-help-nyc-area.html "Hey guys, I'm new at this and started googling for help and came across this board. I used to weigh almost 400 and lost a shit load of weight. I'm down to 190. With being that obese I feel like my...") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [Steals](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4551019-steals.html "View Steals's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8150757-girth-help-nyc-area.html?start=15#1292648963 "Quote:LMAO Chester you are my hero. @Lexus you went to dr. loria? sheesh that does sound bad. but so far the feedback im getting is pump + cock ring, manual PE work also. Was reading on the Mirza vs Heller...") 10 years 1 month ago by [Thinkitstime](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4519765-thinkitstime.html "View Thinkitstime's Profile") - [1](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8150757-girth-help-nyc-area.html?start=0 "Page:1") - [2](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8150757-girth-help-nyc-area.html?start=15 "Page:2") 3834 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8150757-girth-help-nyc-area.html?start=15#1292648963 "Quote:LMAO Chester you are my hero. @Lexus you went to dr. loria? sheesh that does sound bad. but so far the feedback im getting is pump + cock ring, manual PE work also. Was reading on the Mirza vs Heller...") by [Thinkitstime](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4519765-thinkitstime.html "View Thinkitstime's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 27 Replies ### [SCUBA diving with PMMA](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8118218-scuba-diving-with-pmma.html "Hi, I did two rounds almost 4 years ago and everything is going well. My question; will the ata pressure of diving to 60 feet underwater cause problems? I don't know if I should do the diving or not. Any thoughts? John") Topic started 10 years 2 months ago, by [ChicagoJohn](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4511869-chicagojohn.html "View ChicagoJohn's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8118218-scuba-diving-with-pmma.html?start=15#1292645129 "ChicagoJohn, the quintessential ungrateful piece of shit. He's gone. Your dick will not explode scuba diving. Thread is locked.") 10 years 1 month ago by [Skeptical\_One](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1704847-skeptical-one.html "View Skeptical_One's Profile") - [1](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8118218-scuba-diving-with-pmma.html?start=0 "Page:1") - [2](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8118218-scuba-diving-with-pmma.html?start=15 "Page:2") 4342 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8118218-scuba-diving-with-pmma.html?start=15#1292645129 "ChicagoJohn, the quintessential ungrateful piece of shit. He's gone. Your dick will not explode scuba diving. Thread is locked.") by [Skeptical\_One](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1704847-skeptical-one.html "View Skeptical_One's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 111 Replies ### [Dr Elist...](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5540740-dr-elist.html "I see that there is a lot of negative info on doctor elist here, I have had them implant for over 4 years and have never experianced anything nagative at all. From what I understand the doctor has...") Topic started 14 years 9 months ago, by [megadong](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1797854-megadong.html "View megadong's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5540740-dr-elist.html?start=105#1292633343 "Moderator Edit: This post serves no purpose and walks a thin line between criticism and defamation. For this purpose, the content of this entire post has been deleted. @Dr_Elist_Is_Butcher It...") 10 years 1 month ago by [Dr\_Elist\_Is\_Butcher](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4555467-dr-elist-is-butcher.html "View Dr_Elist_Is_Butcher's Profile") - [1](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5540740-dr-elist.html?start=0 "Page:1") - [2](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5540740-dr-elist.html?start=15 "Page:2") - [3](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5540740-dr-elist.html?start=30 "Page:3") - ... - [8](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5540740-dr-elist.html?start=105 "Page:8") 12.4k Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5540740-dr-elist.html?start=105#1292633343 "Moderator Edit: This post serves no purpose and walks a thin line between criticism and defamation. For this purpose, the content of this entire post has been deleted. @Dr_Elist_Is_Butcher It...") by [Dr\_Elist\_Is\_Butcher](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4555467-dr-elist-is-butcher.html "View Dr_Elist_Is_Butcher's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 2 Replies ### [My starting pics](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8149625-my-starting-pics.html "Been doing PE manually for about 6 months made some good gains actually. Looking to get a dermal filler sometime early next year. I want to focus on length manually first before getting the filler....") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [jackets5](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4540816-jackets5.html "View jackets5's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8149625-my-starting-pics.html#1292617381 "Good length, glans bigger than shaft, no prior injections/surgery. Where we can get a good improvement within the limitations of the procedure.") 10 years 1 month ago by [Dr\_Oates](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4460953-dr-oates.html "View Dr_Oates's Profile") 1764 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8149625-my-starting-pics.html#1292617381 "Good length, glans bigger than shaft, no prior injections/surgery. Where we can get a good improvement within the limitations of the procedure.") by [Dr\_Oates](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4460953-dr-oates.html "View Dr_Oates's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 21 Replies ### [Against Phalloboards?](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8135371-against-phalloboards.html "Hi, guys. Look at this: www.ripoffreport.com/r/wade-zobel-of-ava...juana-mexico-1297078") Topic started 10 years 2 months ago, by Dr Oates [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8135371-against-phalloboards.html?start=15#1292593861 "I don't get what you mean?") 10 years 1 month ago by [indiano123](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4089166-indiano123.html "View indiano123's Profile") - [1](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8135371-against-phalloboards.html?start=0 "Page:1") - [2](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8135371-against-phalloboards.html?start=15 "Page:2") 4085 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8135371-against-phalloboards.html?start=15#1292593861 "I don't get what you mean?") by [indiano123](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4089166-indiano123.html "View indiano123's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 7 Replies ### [Macrolane: Injection technique](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8143542-macrolane-injection-technique.html "Poor technique in my opinion.") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [hoddle10](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1704891-hoddle10.html "View hoddle10's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8143542-macrolane-injection-technique.html#1292579879 "@ Dr. Oates Thank you for your critique of this procedure. I remember you stating on this board that you would share a video with us showing your technique. Are you getting that ready for us?") 10 years 1 month ago by [chester](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4437325-chester.html "View chester's Profile") 2025 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8143542-macrolane-injection-technique.html#1292579879 "@ Dr. Oates Thank you for your critique of this procedure. I remember you stating on this board that you would share a video with us showing your technique. Are you getting that ready for us?") by [chester](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4437325-chester.html "View chester's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 4 Replies ### [Average glans size?](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8141735-average-glans-size.html "My whole adult life I've been aware I was on the skinny side in regards to my penis girth @ 4.5". (Not anymore!!) But since I've been a member here, and even when I went for my appointment with Dr. C,...") Topic started 10 years 1 month ago, by [Smokdu123](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4375207-smokdu123.html "View Smokdu123's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8141735-average-glans-size.html#1292566735 "Yeah my glans are way smaller than my girth now, so i'm stuck with a hotdog bun. Wish i could enlarge the glans. I'm considering HA for the flare part but after seeing some members here get necrosis...") 10 years 1 month ago by [neverendingjourney](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4391316-neverendingjourney.html "View neverendingjourney's Profile") 2450 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8141735-average-glans-size.html#1292566735 "Yeah my glans are way smaller than my girth now, so i'm stuck with a hotdog bun. Wish i could enlarge the glans. I'm considering HA for the flare part but after seeing some members here get necrosis...") by [neverendingjourney](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4391316-neverendingjourney.html "View neverendingjourney's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 33 Replies ### [Penile Foreign Body Granuloma Removal from PMMA (With Operative Photo)](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/7428243-penile-foreign-body-granuloma-removal-from-pmma-with-operative-photo.html "I was waiting to post about this until I had all the details. Of the nodules and hardened areas I have had, one was more painful and red. This was part of the reason I decided to have the excision...") Topic started 11 years 2 months ago, by [Restoration](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2984876-restoration.html "View Restoration's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/7428243-penile-foreign-body-granuloma-removal-from-pmma-with-operative-photo.html?start=30#1292556940 "Yeah, pumping and also taking certain supplements (arginine, citruline) will give the penis more "fluid" so the nodules are less pronounced. It's very hard for me to pump because of the skin...") 10 years 1 month ago by [Restoration](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2984876-restoration.html "View Restoration's Profile") - [1](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/7428243-penile-foreign-body-granuloma-removal-from-pmma-with-operative-photo.html?start=0 "Page:1") - [2](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/7428243-penile-foreign-body-granuloma-removal-from-pmma-with-operative-photo.html?start=15 "Page:2") - [3](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/7428243-penile-foreign-body-granuloma-removal-from-pmma-with-operative-photo.html?start=30 "Page:3") 5197 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/7428243-penile-foreign-body-granuloma-removal-from-pmma-with-operative-photo.html?start=30#1292556940 "Yeah, pumping and also taking certain supplements (arginine, citruline) will give the penis more "fluid" so the nodules are less pronounced. It's very hard for me to pump because of the skin...") by [Restoration](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/2984876-restoration.html "View Restoration's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 6 Replies ### [I need to get off this board..](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8114492-i-need-to-get-off-this-board.html "..so I deleted my account, but then thought I really should say thank you to everyone on here first. PB has been really helpful, that is an understatement but rather than squeeze out all the right...") Topic started 10 years 2 months ago, by Dr Oates [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8114492-i-need-to-get-off-this-board.html#1292519311 "i hadnt seen this thread until now and in case youre still dropping in now and then and also in case you didnt read my dedicated thread, i just wanna say thanks for the information conversations,...") 10 years 1 month ago by [number22](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4484015-number22.html "View number22's Profile") 2111 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8114492-i-need-to-get-off-this-board.html#1292519311 "i hadnt seen this thread until now and in case youre still dropping in now and then and also in case you didnt read my dedicated thread, i just wanna say thanks for the information conversations,...") by [number22](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4484015-number22.html "View number22's Profile") 10 years 1 month ago 13 Replies ### [Question for those 7.5 inches or more in girth.](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8136545-question-for-those-7-5-inches-or-more-in-girth.html "Hi all, Still trying to figure out if I should go with another full round of 30% or a full round of 10%. I'm right at 6.75 EG now after second round of 30% and have some gaps that need correcting....") Topic started 10 years 2 months ago, by [globalex](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4217173-globalex.html "View globalex's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8136545-question-for-those-7-5-inches-or-more-in-girth.html#1292510931 "Ok gotya, yeah 43 CC's would do it :-)") 10 years 2 months ago by [Dexterphall](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4011127-dexterphall.html "View Dexterphall's Profile") 2060 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8136545-question-for-those-7-5-inches-or-more-in-girth.html#1292510931 "Ok gotya, yeah 43 CC's would do it :-)") by [Dexterphall](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4011127-dexterphall.html "View Dexterphall's Profile") 10 years 2 months ago 14 Replies ### [Is 10ml enough?](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8129760-is-10ml-enough.html "Dr N, does typically 3 sessions of 10 ml approx per session. 10ml seems kinda low compared to what a bunch of people here have had done each sessions , 30 ml in total, but then her results seem...") Topic started 10 years 2 months ago, by [Dexterphall](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4011127-dexterphall.html "View Dexterphall's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8129760-is-10ml-enough.html#1292501196 "Thank you for the update, Dexter.") 10 years 2 months ago by Dr Oates 3344 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8129760-is-10ml-enough.html#1292501196 "Thank you for the update, Dexter.") by Dr Oates 10 years 2 months ago 22 Replies ### [Manual PE after PMMA?](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5445221-manual-pe-after-pmma.html "I know this has been discussed a little bit in other threads, but personally I think this topic deserves its own thread. We all know that it is fine to stretch after getting PMMA done, but what about...") Topic started 14 years 11 months ago, by [Sizemic](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/1715817-sizemic.html "View Sizemic's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5445221-manual-pe-after-pmma.html?start=15#1292475309 "I am also very interested in this topic. If length PE isn't possible post PMMA I will wait a year or so getting to the length I want before adding PMMA.") 10 years 2 months ago by [CloseCall](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4525755-closecall.html "View CloseCall's Profile") - [1](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5445221-manual-pe-after-pmma.html?start=0 "Page:1") - [2](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5445221-manual-pe-after-pmma.html?start=15 "Page:2") 4776 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/5445221-manual-pe-after-pmma.html?start=15#1292475309 "I am also very interested in this topic. If length PE isn't possible post PMMA I will wait a year or so getting to the length I want before adding PMMA.") by [CloseCall](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4525755-closecall.html "View CloseCall's Profile") 10 years 2 months ago 7 Replies ### [Pre and After care with PMMA](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8131346-pre-and-after-care-with-pmma.html "So, getting close to booking in for PMMA. Is there a checklist of things to do prior, stretching etc? Is there a checklist of post procedure, supps etc? Want to make sure I do everything possible to make this work.") Topic started 10 years 2 months ago, by [Dexterphall](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4011127-dexterphall.html "View Dexterphall's Profile") [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8131346-pre-and-after-care-with-pmma.html#1292469470 "So you've made your choice then, between Dr N and C? Who have you decided to go with?") 10 years 2 months ago by [Mango](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4526826-mango.html "View Mango's Profile") 2306 Views [Last Post](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive/8131346-pre-and-after-care-with-pmma.html#1292469470 "So you've made your choice then, between Dr N and C? Who have you decided to go with?") by [Mango](https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/user/4526826-mango.html "View Mango's Profile") 10 years 2 months ago [ ](#forumtop) ## Schema ```json { "@context": "https://schema.org", "@type": "BreadcrumbList", "itemListElement": [ { "@type": "ListItem", "position": 1, "name": "Home", "item": "https://j4.phalloboards.info" }, { "@type": "ListItem", "position": 2, "name": "Forum", "item": "https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum.html" }, { "@type": "ListItem", "position": 3, "name": "PhalloBoards 2.0 Archived Content (Posting Locked & Read-Only)", "item": "https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/archived-content-from-version-2-0-read-only.html" }, { "@type": "ListItem", "position": 4, "name": "General Phalloplasty Discussion (2.0 Archive)", "item": "https://j4.phalloboards.info/forum/general-phalloplasty-discussion-archive.html" } ] } ```